Hello and welcome to 'Devil's Advocate'. Just two weeks left for President Barack Obama's visit to India, how does Washington view its relationship with India - that's the key issue I should explore with the American Ambassador Timothy Roemer.
Karan Thapar: Ambassador Roemer in less than two weeks President Obama will be in India. How would you characterize Indo-US relations on the eve of his visit?
Timothy Roemer: Well, first of all, it's a pleasure to be with you. You've had such great interviews with DrManmohan Singh and his Holiness the Dalai Lama. I'm honoured to be part of that guest list.
Karan Thapar: It's a pleasure to have you.
Timothy Roemer: Now to your question. The President is personally excited to come here and see his good friend Dr Manmohan Singh. The President sees this as the indispensable partnership for the 21st Century. He sees a rising India on the global stage as a very key partner to us and all of Asia. He sees the bedrock principle of democracy here in India where people delve in religious diversity and tolerance for others and is a key beacon of hope to all of Asia. He sees trade opportunities here growing and growing all the time.
Karan Thapar: Now the two countries like to refer to this as a strategic partnership. What is this partnership based upon?
Timothy Roemer: Well, it's based on democracy. It's based upon the people of India and going to the polls and voting at the local level, at the national level. It's based on a key trade relationship where India has moved from the 25th largest trade partners of the US to the 14th largest trading partner of the US. It also involves key strategic issues of how the US and India see the world and Asia whether it be Afghanistan or the Indian Ocean or even Bangladesh.
Karan Thapar: Can I intervene and point out something? You're setting out a whole list of things that the two countries cooperate on but a recent report co-authored by Richard Armitage and Nick Burns says this critical relationship is falling short of its promise.
Timothy Roemer: I disagree with the "falling short" bit. If the President of US is coming to India and doing it in his first term, in the first two years of his term - everybody agrees that President George W Bush had a great relationship with India and even he came in his second term - President Obama has sent half his cabinet here, he is going to be here soon. It will probably be the longest stay of his Presidency in any country when he comes to India and stays here, he is going to be talking about three themes: he's going to be talking about the rise of the middle class in India, he is going to be talking about the rise of the new India and he's going to be talking about the rise of India on the global stage - those are truly big ideas.
Karan Thapar: Okay, so you're saying to me as the President grapples with the challenges that the world faces - I'm talking about terrorism, the economic growth, the war in Afghanistan, the rise of China, the dysfunctionality of Pakistan - in all these areas are you saying in Washington's eyes, Indian cooperation is necessary to them?
Timothy Roemer: In all those areas the US and India share strategic interests and see the world more and more from the same prism, and in the same way. Let's talk about how they see the enemy whether it's the Laskar-e- Toiba or al-Qaeda. Both identify the same enemies and the same friends. We have just entered into a historic kind of terrorism cooperation agreement with the Government of India where we are working on a dozen new areas - maritime security, border security, intelligence sharing, mega police training, exchanging best practices, targeting on the resources of the enemy to protect India and the US.
Karan Thapar: But is it working?
Timothy Roemer: It is working.
Karan Thapar: But the reason I ask is that revelations by Pro-Publica and additional revelations by 'The New York Times' which suggest to many Indians that the US at least till 2005 knew that David Headley had connections with the LeT, possibly with the ISI but didn't want to dig deeper because of his association with your own department of enforcement. Secondly, perhaps you haven't revealed as much to India or at least as you could have - on both those grounds the press and the perhaps the government are quite concerned.
Timothy Roemer: Let's take both those comments head on and directly. First of all the USA was sharing intelligence before 26/11 and after 26/11. And doing it in ways especially to save lives. For the relationship between the US and India has been robust and eminent and now we are shoulder to shoulder daily working with India to protect its resources.
Karan Thapar: But have you shared information with India 2005 and onwards?
Timothy Roemer: Let's talk about that directly. 'The Washington Post' article you cited and your question also said that the US shared intelligence on several occasions with the Government of India. They said three times, consistently and regularly, the US shared important information with India on this particular subject - 26/11.
Karan Thapar: And there was no delay in doing so?
Timothy Roemer: No delay and the US shared information on 26/11…
Karan Thapar: And shared fully as well?
Timothy Roemer: They were shared regularly, consistently and important information. Now let's talk about Mr Headley. Here is not only information prior to 26/11 but we alternately shared Headley with the people and the Government of India. Now that is extraordinary and historic and let me tell you on a personal note as a former member of the 9/11 commission we asked our own government as Americans for the access to somebody by the name of Khaleed Sheikh Mohammad who took the operation plans of 9/11 to Bin Laden. We couldn't get access to Khaleed Sheikh Mohammad as Americans yet the Government of the USA knowing how important this strategic friendship is and this intelligence sharing role is with India gave unfettered access to Mr Headley for days to the Indian government.
Karan Thapar: That I don't deny. But the point that has been made by the New York Times or the ProPublica revelations in the Washington Post is that there may have been details that either America didn't explore sufficiently because you didn't want to dig deep because of his connections to the DA or you didn't share information with India that his Moroccan wife had gone knocking on the doors of your embassy in Islamabad declaring that he wasn't only severely anti-Indian but also had connections with the ADT. Was that information shared?
Timothy Roemer: You're distinguished and smart and you know that I can't tell you in an open setting particular details of what intelligence was shared between two great partners like the US and India. Let me re-emphasise and underscore to you that 'The Washington Post' article said that we regularly and consistently shared prior to 26/11 information that we continue to share today. Such valuable and sensitive information continue to save lives and we are moving forward in this relationship. The US and India are seeing the world increasingly in the same way, cooperating on scores on new activities to protect Indians, Americans and Europeans and that's what President Obama is going to come here to talk about.
Karan Thapar: Let me pick up on the thought that the two countries increasingly see the world in the same way. One of the issues that in a way categorises the differences in perception between the two countries is, speaking from the Indian standpoint is that President Obama's war in Afghanistan has made American critically dependant on Pakistan for operations and many Indians believe that this has given Islamabad a leverage in Washington at New Delhi's cost. How can you convince India that this is not the case?
Timothy Roemer: Well, the basic premise for this strategic interest for both India and the US over Afghanistan is the same. Both India and the US wanted an independent Afghanistan, peaceful Afghanistan and a prosperous Afghanistan. And we are both working together to achieve that.
Karan Thapar: But does Pakistan want all of that? That's the problem.
Timothy Roemer: Your question wasn't trilateral. Your question was how the US and India see Afghanistan strategically? We see Afghanistan and an outcome in Afghanistan through the same strategic lens.
Karan Thapar: In a very clever way you've shifted my question.
Timothy Roemer: You have shifted your question. I haven't shifted my answer. (Laughs.)
Karan Thapar: My question was really about the war in Afghanistan has made you critically dependant on Pakistan giving Islamabad leverage over Indian interests in Washington's eyes.
Let me spell that out as follows: Pakistan has frequently said that if America were to step in and sort out the Kashmir situation then it would make it a lot easier for Pakistan to throw its full weight behind the fight against the Taliban and al-Qaeda.
And the real question is this: does President Obama see a link between the situation in Kashmir on the one hand and the fight against Taliban and al-Qaeda on the other?
Timothy Roemer: Let’s take those questions one at a time. First of all, question on Pakistan. Bob Woodward has written a book called ‘Obama’s Wars’ and in this book he has direct quote from the President of the US is that when President Obama says to President Zardari of Pakistan in the Oval office in May 2009 - “US will not be part of any kind of military build up against the people of India. Let me be clear about this Mr Zardari”. The President understands that a layer of Pakistan knows that the United States can not be part of anything that would threaten India’s interest. So let’s be very clear about that.
With respect to Kashmir, the US deeply regrets the injuries and the loss of lives, the damage to properties, the difficulties taken place over the past summer in Kashmir.
However, we do note that this is an indigenous and internal issue to India. When India decides to take this issue on – they will do it in a bilateral sense with Pakistan in an appropriate level, scope and pace that they want to engage in. So that’s very clear on Kashmir.
Karan Thapar: Connect to it, a second concern to Obama’s visit to India, the fact is that America is supplying military aid to Pakistan.worth billions of dollars. India worries about this. How can President Obama assure Prime Minister Manmohan Singh that his apprehensions are mistaken?
Timothy Roemer: I think what you hear and what your viewers would like to hear when Dr Singh and President Obama meet, may be behind closed doors here or at race course. Again they will share some very similar outcomes with respect to even to Pakistan. Dr Singh and Indian people see a stable Pakistan is being India’s interest and that India can grow at eight – nine per cent per year and have more inclusive growth for people …
Karan Thapar: But don’t arms in Pakistan destabilise the situation in the subcontinent?
Timothy Roemer: Exactly the arms sales that US has for Pakistan are geared toward counter insurgency efforts to concentrate on the cancer and on the terrorism internally that configured to destablise Pakistan – that is not in India’s interest, at all. It is not India’s interest for Pakistan to become stabilize. It is not US’s interest. Therefore those weapons are targeted at terrorists and not at India.
Karan Thapar: That’s your intention but how can you insure that Pakistan won’t target India?
Timothy Roemer: A former Congress man is saying it to you. I have served in our Parliament, our Congress. Our Congress is senate and house, very aggressive and attentive. When we do arms sales, it is better for the intended purpose.
Karan Thapar: Let’s come to a different side of the story. The fact the US has sharply raised H1 B, L1 visas. The Indians believe that this is an unfair and direct hit at its Information Technology industry. It’s perhaps even a breach of WTO regulations they want the increase reverse. How you going to handle that?
Timothy Roemer: Media loves to concentrate on so called minor irritants
Karan Thapar: It cooperate India’s concern?
Timothy Roemer: Media loves. Our media loves to do it. Indian media loves to do it. In the arc of cooperation and trade the business cooperation between business to business cooperation with America and India, trade growth, export growth. If you look at the facts in the statistics on what media likes to cover - you will see that India has moved from 25th largest US trading partner to the 14th largest US trading partner.
Karan Thapar: Is that an answer to my question?
Timothy Roemer: Its an direct answer to my question. It’s about how trade and commerce going between India and US.
Karan Thapar: My question is will you give us H1 B, L1 visas increase?
Timothy Roemer: There are some small irritants which are insignificant footnotes in this relationship that really don’t matter.
Karan Thapar: So your message is that this insignificant is just an irritant and you are not going to do anything about it? I just want to get clarity.
Timothy Roemer: Your putting words in my mouth and I think your coming across more of your like other TV shows. It’s more about war of words rather than just conversation. What I’m saying is this relationship is strategically critical to both the countries. It is going in a very positive way, economically. Trade is going because of the rich people and people to people ties and the exchange of ideas and technology.
Karan Thapar: I accept that.
Timothy Roemer: The President would talk about these issues during India’s trip. He will talk about the export control reviews, defence sales and commercial sales. This is a great relationship.
Karan Thapar: And let it stay a great relationship. The audiences have to interpret whether you have answered my questions or not. Let me come to my last question. This time a problem that perhaps exists from the Washington end to which you are looking for an answer – the Nuclear Liablilty bill.
Your spokesman in the state department has made it clear that America would like to see changes. The Indian side has also made it clear that’s not possible. Do we have an impasse or logjam?
Timothy Roemer: Let me give you an direct answer to your question. Here there is another big idea or positive idea between the two countries. For example: electricity for people in rural areas of India.
Karan Thapar: Do we have a logjam?
Timothy Roemer: This is a great relationship and has positive benefits for both the countries. There may be minor disagreements and concerns that we have to improve in future. We are also working through as we speak. We have this historic agreement with India. There are other countries in this region who would like to get the same note agreement like Pakistan. They don’t have that ability right now.
Karan Thapar: The Prime Minister has suggested that America’s concerns can be allayed by the way the rules are formulated. Would that suffice, in other words would the formulation of the rules be sufficient to overcome your concern with the legislation and the law itself?
Timothy Roemer: I am not going to comment on amendments or the legislative process. We are working on concerns and this is going on a very positive direction. Also it underscores not only one area that we are working together on strategically energy. It would reflux the relationship today and that electricity in air when President Obama would be coming here, people through out India will be looking forward to this. I am really looking forward for a successful visit.
Karan Thapar: Electricity in the air can be charging but it can also be dangerous. Ambassador Roemer, a pleasure talking to you.
Timothy Roemer: Thank you so much.